[Closed] A question of ethics

[angleofscience]

WHO: Four and Jetfire
WHERE: A terrace by Liege's temple.
WHEN: Backdated slightly, to shortly after Crow's post here.
WHAT: The Talk... about ethical scientific behaviour.
WARNINGS: None, except mentions of Crow's vivisection.



It had, of course, taken Jetfire far less time to get to the location he'd given to Four than it would take her to arrive, so in the intervening time he simply took in the view.

And wondered if this could have been avoided somehow... He shook his helm and crossed his arms over his chestplates, accepting that it probably wouldn't have been, unless who she'd talk to would have been policed more.

Though, after she "joined" the Decepticons, perhaps he should've sat down with her and had a proper talk about certain things, besides the brief conversation they'd had then. Not much to do about it now however.

Comments

[4_toteachus]

Despite having fast and reliable transportation, it still took four about half an hour to get to the Temple. All she could think about on her way there was that she was in trouble and someone was about to lecture her. Imagine that! She had never been lectured here on Cybertron. Over and over again she ran their conversation through her mind, worrying about what she did wrong. She put Crow back together again, didn't she?

Or maybe it was a problem beyond that.

Four entered the temple and located Jetfire on the terrace without much trouble. The temple itself hadn't confused her since she arrived here, her memory was flawless. Her little hovercraft drifted towards Jetfire as she waved her little arms in an effort to get his attention.

Hi, she was here.

[angleofscience]

Since he'd been paying attention - if passively - to his surroundings, even with how small Four was Jetfire quickly spotted her and nodded. He did smile a little, but his expression remained serious enough...

Yes, a lecture was certainly forthcoming.

"Four, good. Make yourself as... er, comfortable as you can." Pausing, Jetfire looked the little creature over and shook his helm. "I'm surmising you don't exactly get why I wanted to talk to you, do you?" Which was... both good and bad, because that meant she didn't actually understand what was wrong... But that also meant she hadn't made the request of Shockwave without understanding, completely, all the ramifications of it.

[4_toteachus]

Four shook her head and put her hands behind her back, a wooden toe scuffing at the floor of her hovercraft. She had a pretty good idea of why she was here, but she didn't quite know... why. If that made any sense at all.

She's listening, Jetfire.

[angleofscience]

Shaking his helm again, Jetfire crossed his arms over his chestplates.

"Properly.. ethically conducted science contains a few guidelines, Four." He paused, optics narrowing and let out the next vent slowly. "While results might be attained quicker, more... ah, effectively without following them, not following them means disrespecting safety, other individuals' right to self determination, their person and life, most often."

He knew, after all, of what he was speaking about. The most glaring incident being that with the cerebro shell and Grimlock, but he'd done... a handful of things while in the Decepticons he was less happy with. Grimlock had been, by far, the worst, but that didn't mean the others were something to be proud of.

"While picking apart something... or someone might give information we're interested in, or might even be vital, killing them for it, or, for example, stealing or otherwise removing a device from someone, through violence or not which they haven't agreed to hand over, isn't right. Dissection is one thing, Four, but vivisection, regardless if you can... er, put them back together again, isn't ethical."

Another narrowing of Jetfire's optics, this time accompanied by a tightening of his expression as well.

"Especially not if they haven't given their uncoerced and freely given consent."

INCOMING TL;DR

[4_toteachus]

All of these things Four hadn't considered in a very long time. It wasn't as if she didn't know these things, she knew a lot about a lot of things, it was just that she had been told, over and over again, that they didn't matter. Her eyes click as she carefully absorbed the information and began to analyse it.

"Properly.. ethically conducted science contains a few guidelines, Four."

Had she missed this somehow? Hearing Jetfire say it made it feel suddenly obvious. So what were those guidelines? She noted that Jetfire had placed a lot of emphasis on the word "Ethically", which was obviously what this whole lecture was about. Fascinating, she wondered why Shockwave had never once mentioned the word to her while discussing Science.

"While results might be attained quicker, more... ah, effectively without following them, not following them means disrespecting safety, other individuals' right to self determination, their person and life, most often."

But when given a choice to choose between ethics and effectiveness, why would one choose the less effective choice to the same conclusion? Though if Jetfire was saying that one should be ethical for the sake of being good, then she could understand that. She supposed she should have thought about Crow's feelings before she lured him into getting vivisected. Perhaps it was troubling that it never crossed her mind?

"While picking apart something... or someone might give information we're interested in, or might even be vital, killing them for it, or, for example, stealing or otherwise removing a device from someone, through violence or not which they haven't agreed to hand over, isn't right. Dissection is one thing, Four, but vivisection, regardless if you can... er, put them back together again, isn't ethical."

There was that word again, Ethical. Jetfire had explicitly stated that harming others and stealing were wrong, no matter the reason. Four bowed her head in shame and examined her feet. What she did to Crow was wrong, and her reasons for doing it were wrong too.

"Especially not if they haven't given their uncoerced and freely given consent."

Consent. Also something she had never considered. It was an important word, yet she had ignored it anyway. She slowly pulled out her communicator and started typing.

You mentioned Ethics several times. Aside from considering the consent of the subjects, how else can one be ethical while conducting research? Is there a time when ethics can be disregarded? If Crow had agreed to letting me see his insides, would that have changed anything? Does the fact that Shockwave never considers ethics in his science make him a bad scientist?

>_> Right back at you.

[angleofscience]

Eyeing the flow of questions, Jetfire tilted his helm, falling quiet for a few moments before he looked to Four again. At least she was thinking about it and not rejecting it out of hand.

"Shockwave... isn't a... ah, 'bad' scientist insofar as he gets workable results and scientific progress, but it's usually not done through moral or ethical means. That's his choice to make, but it's not a good one." Casting a glance around their surroundings, Jetfire bent down and picke dup a stray rock, turning it over in his hands.

"This pebble is inert, and will have no physical or emotional responses, negative or positive, if I were to take a laser to it and bisect it to look at its composition where it hasn't been touched by weathering. It's a neutral act that has no direct impact on the surroundings, myself, or anyone else, and a rock is a rock."

Holding up the pebble so Four could see it more clearly, Jetfire caught her tiny eyes and shook his helm.

"Let's say it might be radioactive, or I could get radioactive fuel out of it; if I were to do this unprotected without regard for my surroundings, or the people who are nearby, I might not harm only myself, but others. If it was a question of dire emergency, it might be necessary, otherwise I'd need to consider where, when or if I should do it." Such a thing had come up once or twice during his time as a Decepticon, and he'd... bent those a few times. Never gone as far as some of the other Decepticon scientists, but further than he would now be comfortable with doing.

"And if this rock would be an animal, or even further, be self-aware, have... er, intelligence and sentience? Putting aside questions of consent, whatever I might do to it would probably cause distress and pain, Four. I have no idea if Crow has the wiring for a negative physical response to harmful stimuli, which vivisection certainly is, but as he's self-aware and intelligent, negative emotional stimuli is highly probable."

Not just probable, but considering his post, definitive.

"And as for if ethics can ever be put aside... er, well. That would probably be situational." He wasn't naïve enough to believe anything else, but that didn't mean it was something he liked to consider. But what he would find a necessary situation to do so would probably be vastly different to a few others' judegement of the same.